Asked about the possibility of reconciliation with Thackeray, who now heads the Shiv Sena (Uddhav Balasaheb Thackeray), Fadnavis said that while differences of opinion or ‘matabhd’ could be overcome, ‘manabhd’ or personality differences were difficult to overcome. Excerpts from the interview:
s. Do you sense any build-up of anti-incumbency as the Narendra Modi government completes a decade?
After a long time, there is a government with clear support for incumbency. People want to vote for Narendra Modi. He has personally touched people in all sectors of society, from children to businesses, from influencers to gamers, artists to artisans. The people want him as prime minister. I don’t think any other prime minister has achieved that. Therefore, I do not see any opposition to holding positions. If there is any opposition to holding an office somewhere, it is against the candidate and not against the Prime Minister and the government.
s. What impact do issues such as inflation and unemployment have on the ballot box?
These issues are always points of discussion, but people compare. Inflation was in double digits during the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance regime. In comparison, the BJP controlled inflation during its tenure, and the last five to seven years have seen the lowest inflation rates. Statistics from agencies such as the Employees Provident Fund Organization indicate that employment in the informal sector is gradually being transferred to the formal sector.
Employment models have changed, as startups, digital ecosystems and the expansion of financial services create employment opportunities. India is emerging as a post-Covid manufacturing hub. This enhances employment opportunities on a large scale. However, the demographic advantage resulting from a large young population also poses a challenge. Prime Minister Modi is trying to do things successfully. On the other hand, the opposition has no plan to generate job opportunities.
s. What about the perceived sympathy for Sharad Pawar and Uddhav Thackeray and the perception that the BJP has split their parties?
Sharad Pawar has been brilliant when it comes to dividing parties in Maharashtra and the country. Sharad Pawar has divided Congress, Shiv Sena and other parties several times. At least he shouldn’t complain. The two parties (Shiv Sena and NCP) should think about why their people are withdrawing. There were several instances when people moved from the opposition to the ruling party, but when the Shiv Sena joined us in Maharashtra, it was the first time they moved from the treasury benches to the opposition.
In the end, people on both sides felt suffocated and saw no future for themselves. (Eknath) Shinde Sahib and his supporters saw Hindutva abandoned and cut down to size; Aaditya (Thackeray) took precedence. The same situation was here (National Congress Party). Ajit Pawar felt that (Sharad) Pawar Sahib would pass on his legacy to Supriya Tai (Sharad Pawar’s daughter Supriya Sule). There was a boiling noise over it. There are no party divisions for one reason. It’s a series of events.
s. There are accusations that central agencies like the Enforcement Directorate (ED) have been deployed to divide parties.
No investigation was conducted against (Prime Minister) Eknath Shinde. There was not even a complaint against him at the emergency department. This (rebellion) was led by Shinde. There was a time when financial and tax frauds were happening and the income tax department was very important. Even then, there were allegations against previous governments of misuse of the IT department. Now the laws have been changed. Money laundering is an important topic. In the digital economy, money laundering is easy to detect. ED laws deal with money laundering. Eventually, in Maharashtra and the country, the erstwhile Congress and NCP respectively introduced a system of privatization of politics. So, those who did something (i.e. a violation) will have to pay the price.
s. Uddhav Thackeray claimed that you will train Aaditya Thackeray to become Prime Minister.
He may have lost his head, but I didn’t. Why is he talking about this five years later and claiming I said that? He is making up a Salim-Javed-like story because he has nothing else to rely on. However, I admit that I told Uddhav ji that if he ultimately wanted the party to pass (the mantle) to Aditya, then he (Aditya) should enter the electoral process. Thackeray said that he (Aditya) allowed him to contest the elections.
s. Is political reconciliation with Uddhav Thackeray possible in the future?
There are no answers to the “if” and “but” questions in politics. It depends on the prevailing situation. But let me say with conviction: While it is possible to get rid of differences of opinion, overcoming personality differences takes time. Here the alarm clock is dominant.
s. Ashok Chavan joined the BJP after the Adarsh Association scam was mentioned in the Union government’s white paper. The Prime Minister referred to the Rs 70,000-crore irrigation scam in Maharashtra, Ajit Pawar has joined hands with you. Isn’t the chronology clear?
Is there a scam in Adarsh? Yes, no one denied that. What is Ashok Chavan’s alleged role in Adarsh? He won in court and is no longer charged. This allegation could have been made if he had joined the BJP when he was an accused. I have read Adarsh’s file. Many people should have faced the law, but only Ashok Chavan did.
s. In 2013, Ajit Pawar sarcastically attacked “Piss Chucky” (insinuating that he deserved to be sent behind bars).
In (political) confrontations, we make such statements. Many of these statements made by other leaders can be referred to. At that time, Ajit Pawar and I were in an intense political confrontation, and speaking according to the prevailing situation – we definitely felt that there was a scam in the Maharashtra Irrigation Department.
s. Why did you change your mind?
There is a huge legal process. The cases filed (in the irrigation scam) have seen some people being punished. But in the end, the responsibility was pinned on those responsible. There is no case in which Ajit Pawar has been named as an accused. At most, we can say that he should have been more diligent while running the department.
s. The opposition is raising the issue of industrial projects moving from Maharashtra to Gujarat.
It is wrong to say that they went to Gujarat. Those who went there did so in their time (Maharashtra Vikas Aghadi) and because of their apathy. It was not possible to reach the Prime Minister, the Minister of Industry was inactive, and the bureaucratic approach was satisfied. I have been chief minister for five years, and every year, we have outstripped Gujarat in attracting investments. The day we came back to power, I said we would become No. 1 again by beating Gujarat, and we did.
s. Chief Minister Eknath Shinde said the former MVA dispensation was planning to arrest you and other BJP leaders.
I knew this. Sanjay Pandey (a senior IPS official) and others were entrusted with this task. They examined me from my hair to my toenails, tried to find out where they could implicate me, and conducted secret investigations; Then they took my statement in the Rashmi Shukla case (a senior IPS officer who is now the Maharashtra Directorate General of Police has been charged for allegedly illegal phone tapping). But in the end, their legal advisors told them that there was no way they could go after me. Sanjay Pandey was appointed Mumbai Police Commissioner with a specific warrant to arrest me.
s. What is the connection between these secret inquiries?
They were all cooked up stories. Someone used to tell them that Fadnavis had given these permissions. (But) I was very alert when I was running the government. The same day I sat in that chair, I knew that even if I made one mistake, I wouldn’t survive.
s. Whose agenda was this?
Uddhav Thackeray, supported by Sharad Pawar.
s. Why did it come to this?
I was very aggressive. I always say, keep me as minister, it’s in your best interest. If I were the leader of the opposition, I would be unstoppable. I would dig something every day. They were unable to manage the legislative session. I used to get a lot of material daily. So, they thought that if he (Fadnavis) ends, the BJP can be stopped.
s. What happened in the closed discussion between Amit Shah and Uddhav Thackeray? Is he promised to be Shiv Sena chief minister in 2019?
Let me tell you for sure: neither Uddhav Thackeray nor the Shiv Sena got promised the post of Chief Minister. When it was decided that they would not get the prime minister’s post, he (Thackeray) said that I was retracting my earlier extreme position. So, you are saying something (at the press conference) that will make my people feel that we understand them. Then decide what will be said there. This was said in Marathi and then in Hindi. Then he called Vahini (Rashmi Thackeray) and repeated it in front of her. A press conference was then held. So his claims are 100% false.
s. Was Shiv Sena’s plan to go with Sharad Pawar in place before the elections?
I feel that strongly. Pawar Sahib told them that you are helping us as we are facing the BJP so that the BJP gets less seats. The Bharatiya Janata Party is on the rise. If the BJP gets around 130-135 seats, it will reduce its dependence on you (Sena). You help us and we’ll help you get to Congress so you too can get more numbers. So, both of us (NCP and Shiv Sena) will remain relevant since given that things are in favor of the BJP, there is a risk of both of us becoming irrelevant.
s. At the India Today conclave last year, I said that the idea of imposing president’s rule in Maharashtra was Sharad Pawar’s idea. I also mentioned that there are more finds in store.
In 2014, Pawar Saheb held discussions with us about the partnership. In 2017, he had made a decision. But then, we imposed a condition that we will not abandon the Shiv Sena and the three of us (BJP, Shiv Sena and NCP) must be together. He did not agree to this. In 2019, he himself held discussions but backed out (again). I feel it is because I (Fadnavis) as chief minister for five years, was able to take independent decisions. In addition, we have a strong chain of command, including the Prime Minister and the Minister of Interior. Hence, it is difficult to control this government. But if any other government is formed, he (Pawar) can manage it, and show that he is fighting Modi too. That is why the decision was taken (to form an MVA government with Shiv Sena and Congress).
s. What happened in 2017? What are the conditions for power sharing?
We sat down and made the decision. Pawar Sahib went for the last meeting, and at this our elders said that we agree to the proposal, and you should come with us. But our condition is that the Shiv Sena is not excluded. He (Pawar) left and called me saying this had not been decided in advance and they (NCP) had not been told in advance that the Shiv Sena would be part of this arrangement.
s. Do you think Sharad Pawar will ally with BJP again?
I do not think so.
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